Having been in China for over a year now, I’m painfully aware that I’m still terrible at Chinese.
Shh…
At school, I learnt French and German, and can still hold a conversation. Working in Tokyo I learnt enough Japanese to get by in the first month. Spending two months in Central Asia, mostly surrounded by sheep and goats rather than humans, I learnt to read rudimentary Russian. Volunteering in Costa Rica I lived alone with a village family and learnt Spanish from nothing to quite a reasonable level in 8 weeks. I’m apparently not awful at learning languages, and Costa Rica was only two years ago, so I’m not going to use getting older as an excuse.
I thought part of the problem might be Chinese being so totally alien. With a good grounding in the structure of French, German and Spanish followed easily. Being able to read the letters and watching TV with subtitles was an efficient and enjoyable way of increasing vocabulary. For some reason, Russian just clicked and came easily. Chinese doesn’t seem to follow any of these rules, but then neither does Japanese and I was able to pick up a little of that language quite quickly.
Additionally, if someone is happy or angry in a language it’s generally easy to pick up from the tone of voice. In Chinese, two old friends talking about a kitten can sound as though they’re venting years of pent up hatred at each other. Of course, they might be angry, I couldn’t tell, but such conversations more often end in grins than fisticuffs. Japanese in a business environment is spoken in a far calmer fashion, which may have aided my comprehension.
Every time I leave the building our security guard says something in greeting, and I’m really just nodding and smiling without having a clue.
A photo I kept on my phone, during my first week in China
I admit I’ve not taken any Chinese lessons beyond Rosetta Stone, which I just didn’t enjoy. I understand the Rosetta Stone concept, and that it takes time, but it’s frustrating. After 3 months I was able to say “The boy is holding the yellow ball”, “The horse is near and the house is far” and “The woman goes running in the morning”, but nothing remotely useful like “One of those please”, “Where is the toilet” or “I’m not paying that much!”. In addition, the whole pinyin writing section feels pointless as Chinese people write in Chinese characters (unsurprisingly!), and the speech recognition element oftentimes struggles with native Chinese speakers, let alone my mangled accent.
Rosetta Stone and an audiobook did teach me the tones well enough to read pinyin accurately so I reverted to studying a phrase book and dictionaries. By that method, I’ve learnt enough Chinese sentences to cope with day-to-day life, like shopping and restaurants, but am aware that it’s just parrot fashion really. Anything more complicated is a result of me figuring out questions in pinyin using dictionaries and Google Translate.
This works, but I can only occasionally understand the responses, as long as they’re in context and accompanied by a bit of hand waving.
This gets me by but I’ve reached a plateau that’s a long way from understanding a conversation and I’m sure that my friend’s toddler will soon be correcting me.
Anyway, the point is that I’m keen to improve my spoken Chinese and make a start on reading, so it’s time to go back to basics. I’m willing to try anything, so would be interested to know what anyone else’s most effective method of learning was:
- a classroom with part/full-time lessons? I’ve found a couple of schools that would provide a good kick-start
- community language groups – a good way to meet people, but it is effective?
- complete immersion with a family, maybe well away from all the English in larger towns?
- the ‘learning workshops’ where you do things like go shopping as a group and presumably annoy underpaid shop employees?
- podcasts, but which one?
- anything else I’ve not heard about?
- all of the above?
Alternatively, should I just man-up, go back to Rosetta Stone and get on with it? Then perhaps I can figure out why the security guard is always so happy, and whether he’s laughing at or with me…
I’d very much welcome any language learning ideas or recommendations in the comments below.
Hi!
I, too, am learning Chinese after having learned Spanish (and a decent amount of ASL). Chinese is by far the most difficult language I’ve attempted. I’ve also been an ESOL teacher and have taught using Rosetta Stone.
Of course, people learn differently, but what has worked most for me has been some independent learning (with things like Byki, livemocha.com, character practice apps, etc) and then intentionally practicing what I’ve learned with my Chinese friends. By surrounding myself with friends who speak the language, I can use what I’ve learned in a real-life context.
Rosetta Stone has a lot of things right in its concept of language learning, but the problem is, like you said, so little of it is actually practical. I still don’t know how to say that I’m holding a yellow ball, but I can sure order food and ask where things are! Again, the immersion–amongst people in real-life situations–has helped more than anything. I can ask friends questions; I can’t ask Rosetta Stone.
You may know of Benny, the Irish polyglot (http://www.fi3m.com). He has some fantastic tips on his site, and he did a very detailed review of Rosetta Stone recently. I found it quite helpful.
Keep trying, and ??!
Thanks for the encouragement. I think that Rosetta Stone might suit me well for a different language, but the part that was most frustrating was the spoken aspect, when two Chinese friends sat with me couldn’t be understood either. I tried the intermediate Spanish version and got along fine.
I’d heard of fi3m – he got slated over at ChineseHacks, but I’ll have a better look.
it’s me again. anyway, i think hanging out with locals work. i mean, it can get really frustrating, but there are some slang or street words that you’ll pick up from them. and try to write them down, so you’d remember.
i hang out mostly with english-speaking people, so even after almost 3yrs, my chinese is still crap 🙁
i think watching chinese movies or tv show helps too.
it jsut depends on the person, i mean, i don’t usually hang out with locals/chinese because we have different interests and i just can’t seem to “click” with them (especially office people).
good luck! 🙂
Hey, I think that is a major part of my lack of progress – for the last year I’ve been either working at home or in hotels, so have had limited interaction outside of my local shops.
Another couple of months and I’ll be more static in Beijing, so can start getting some proper lessons, and use them day-to-day.
This really doesn’t help you with speaking, but I find Skritter super great for learning characters. Some people don’t want to learn to read or write at all, but personally I hate being illiterate 🙂
http://www.skritter.com/refer/wallaby78erik
Yeah, that’s my referral link. We both get 2 free weeks added to our subscription if you decide to sign up. Which is always nice!
Good luck with studying. I also use a bunch of free podcasts, here’s a list of them:
http://www.popupchinese.com/
http://www.atozchinese.com/
http://www.chineseclass101.com/
http://www.visualmandarin.com/
http://www.imandarinpod.com/
http://www.cslpod.com/
Thanks for the links – I’d been toying with the idea of Skritter/Nciku for writing for a while now.
I’ve got a podcast downloaded in iTunes: chinesepod.com, and will have a look at those you mentioned.
Chinese IS hard. But don’t give up. It gets easier (well, so I hear!). Someone once described it like this: European languages are easy in the beginning, because of all the cognates and the similarities to English, but then once you nail the vocab they get hard because of the grammar. Chinese is the opposite. It’s very hard in the beginning because you have to learn the tones, the characters. But once you get a solid base, it gets better because there is basically no grammar.
I’ve never used it much, but lots of my friends rave about ChinesePod.com. I also think it helps to either get a tutor/teacher and/or language exchange/native-speaking friends. Chinese speaking is too hard to learn alone. I’ve found small successes watching Chinese movies (with Chinese character subtitles) and listening to Chinese music while following along with lyrics (assuming you’re learning characters as well, of course).
Best of luck!
I’ve downloaded ChinesePod and will post a review once I get around to listening to a few.
Thanks for the encouragement!
Hi, Steve.
Hundreds of thousands of learners around the world can sympathize with your plight! I’ve been learning Chinese for over 7 years now, and I’ve seen a lot of people have the exact same problem that you’re having. It sounds like you realy have a knack for learning languages, though, so I think that if you just stick with it, you’ll get it sooner or later.
Anyway, as for what I’d personally recommend to help you really learn Chinese well, I’d say use Pimsleur. My Chinese is about 95% self-studied, and when I began learning the language, I used Pimsleur’s comprehensive Mandarin course almost exclusively (as opposed to the Quick-and-Simple course they also have). I tried using Rosetta Stone like you did at first and found it extremely unhelpful just the same as you did. The reason I like Pimsleur is that each of the 90 lessons in the comprehensive course builds on the previous lessons. So it starts out very basic, “Excuse me. Do you speak English? I speak a little Chinese,” and slowly moves into more complex grammar. Each lesson is about 30 minutes long and begins with a brief conversation. After the conversation, the narrator goes on to explain what each sentence means as a whole, giving you lots of opportunities to repeat after native speakers. They use “backwards build up” exercises to help you learn pronunciation of each word. Then, the sentences are often further broken down and explained grammatically so that you get a firm grasp on not just what you’re saying but also WHY you’re saying it. By the end of the lesson, you understand and can take part in the conversation you heard at the beginning. The speakers used in the lessons are natives, so if you really work hard at mimicking both their tones and pronunciation, you’ll end up speaking Chinese in a way indistinguishable from a native speaker. After you’ve listened to and learned all 90 lessons backwards and forwards (Ignore the narrator’s recommendation that if you understand 80% of the lesson, you can move on!), you’ll have a really good basic grasp of the language, all of the tools you need to start expressing your own thoughts and ideas as you learn new vocabulary. You’ll also find yourself pretty adept at hitting on people in Chinese since some of the conversations seem to be about doing just that. My friends and I jokingly call it “Pimpsleur”.
Now, a couple of caveats. Pimsleur is exclusively audio, so if you’re a visual learner (which it doesn’t sound like you are), you may have problems with it. It also takes great discipline to learn using Pimsleur because of all the repetition involved in each lesson. The other thing to watch out for is that the narrator tends to announce incorrect tones. You’ll hear one of the speakers speak with a 2nd tone and then a 3rd tone, but the announcer will say something like, ‘Notice that he said that with a falling tone, followed by a rising tone.” As long as you listen to pronunciation and tone of the speakers and not the tones announced by the narrator, you’ll be in great shape. They may have fixed these issues in updated versions of the course, but when I studied it, that’s what I encountered, and it used to drive me nuts.
After you’ve mastered Pimsleur, I’d say move on to Chinese Pod’s intermediate lessons. Chinese Pod uses a lot of the same methods that Pimsleur uses; the only problem is that their lessons aren’t progressive like Pimsleur’s are. At least, they weren’t the last time I listened to their podcasts, but that may have changed.
Hope that was helpful to you. Happy learning!
Thanks for the detailed write up on Pimsleur – I’ll investigate in depth tomorrow.
The link to MangoLanguages.com from your site was interesting – it appears to be everything I’d hoped for from Rosetta Stone.
You’ve obviously found a ton of links around the web, I will say this: when I first got to China I had all the book knowledge but zero experience speaking Chinese. When I started working here, I had no choice: I had to pick up the phone and actually use the language (working in a Chinese office). My Chinese must have really improved quickly, because I was soon conducting 30-50 conversations per day in Chinese, living in a city (Shenzhen) where I never spoke English, and of course, dating women who couldn’t speak English.
What about dating Chinese?
I’m not sure if this is helpful at all, but now have very fun and intelligent conversations with my Chinese teacher, but struggle with Chinese characters. The written/reading part is harder, but you might be surprised just how quickly you can pick up spoken Chinese with more immersion.
It’s something to investigate: “He’s only after you for your grammar”
What an excellent batch of links here, particularly to all those podcasts. I’ve used ChinesePod before and liked them, and had a private tutor during 2 months in Lijiang.
Next year I’m moving to Beijing and plan to join a course/hire a tutor 5 days a week.
I’d like to echo the thanks to every one who has commented for all the great suggestions.
I’ve decided to go and spend a month or so near Chengdu
to eat lots of Sichuan hotpoton an intensive (5 days a week) small group course in September, then will choose between Pimsleur and ChinesePod to continue my studies.I arrived in Chengdu not really being able to communicate, but I took one-on-one lessons and found that to be really helpful as you can go exactly at your own pace and you also get to speak the whole time instead of just 1/5 or 1/20 of the time.
I also did a homestay with a Chinese family for two months.
This worked very well for me to go from knowing a little Chinese but being unable to really speak or understand to being able to converse in Chinese for hours at a time.
The other thing I did was avoid contact with most other foreigners, so I would be forced to speak Chinese most of the time. Don’t hang out in ex-pat bars. Go where the Chinese go. Since I see you’re going to Chengdu, do go to Machu Picchu, a great little café/bar that is mostly Chinese, but the kind of place where they will be happy to have you sit at their table and talk with them.
Hi,
You’re right now I think about it. Small groups work well for most languages, where pupils can already read texts and just need help with pronunciation. Chinese does need more teacher-pupil attention at first.
Thanks for the Chengdu tips – I only yesterday found a homestay that comes with daily 1-1 lessons, so that would appear to be the best option.
Loved this article and your blog, Steve! 🙂
I remember my first visit to Beijing in 2007 and how intimidating the Chinese were. When I said, “Nihao!” people laughed loudly and imitated: “Nii! Hao?” HA HA HA Apparently, my tones were wrong!!!
“How funny can it be?” I thought.
OK, let’s say a foreigner makes a grammar mistake in English or Russian (my mother tongue). It can be funny. But even if s/he says “F… you!” instead of “Hello!”, it is not that funny after all!
I went back to the U.S. where I was working in a “corporate world”, like you, but the “alien China” did not leave me alone.
I decided to move to Xiamen, Southern China, in 2009. I wanted a challenge: I still remember how thrilled and scared I was on the plane.
But… Xiamen did not seem as alien as Beijing did!
I am now married to a Chinese man, teaching at the University, writing a blog in both Chinese and English(http://blog.sina.com.cn/sumengxiablog), and, as a winner of Fujian province Chinese language competition, going to Beijing in August to take part in the national Chinese competition for foreigners.
Back in Beijing! I am wondering if it will feel as alien as before…
It’s always offputting when a simple error is met with gales of laughter. Most other places, they’d correct it and move on (then laugh about it with their friends later…)
Regarding the alien feeling, I’ve got to the point where it fades away, then something happens and it returns instantly.
Best of luck in the National Chinese Competition!
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Hey don’t worry ! Am still to learn English!
Beside that, if you really don’t “feel” it, then maybe consider other techniques? There are many ways (and places) one can learn. What works for one may suck for another.
And the toilet really looks like toilet hehe, anyone else noticed that ? (the one on the left)
Your English seems fine to me. As you say there are many ways to learn, and following this post I was suggested one that’s excellent. I’ll be reviewing it soon!
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I stumbled on your blog by accident via Twitter. I’m also a Chinese learner. Have been for 3.5 years now. It is a challenge I tell you. But that’s also the motivation for me.
I started a site last year (http://socialmandarin.com) where people can share online Mandarin resources and blog posts with other learners. There are now almost 500 links on the site. You are bound to find something that will help you. If not there’s a good community of bloggers posting interesting content along with trying to share their experiences. Get involved! It’s fun.
Hi,
Thanks for the link – it looks good!
Hey Steve – I think a lot has already been covered above so I’ll just throw in what I do.
I also tried rosetta & left it behind (for chinese). I then moved over to Chinesepod & continue to use them for a long time. I like their attitude towards learning & communicating. Plus since it’s just audio, it’s harder to talk myself out of listening (like while playing video games).
Other than that I’ve got a weekly 1 hour class for characters and use regular flashcards iphone app etc.
I think daily practice is important & language exchanges can be useful if you find a good partner. Speaking is a key for me to retain languages.
Like ConfusedLaowai above above with social mandarin, which I use, I also have a learning chinese social network that’s free & has blogs videos etc. If you don’t mind a side plug, readers can see it here: Study More Chinese – Learning Mandarin social network.
Plug away -looks good! Obviously the first place I went is ‘How to make soup dumplings’, which may explain my lack of progress…
Dear Steve,
Hello, It’s been such a pleasure following your blog, and it was awesome to see how in this post with all the struggles with language and communicating with the people, you still continued trying!
The adventures that you have had seem like they were amazing life experiences, but I was wondering if you had more to add about your experiences with the locals similar to what you began to touch on in this article? I came across this documentary trailer the other day called “American Bear: An Adventure in the Kindness of Strangers,” and found that it was a really interesting concept where two filmmakers traveled in the US relying on strangers for shelter each night. They actually found a pretty successful trip, so I was wondering if you had an experience to share? Check out the “Your Voice” section of http://www.AmericanBearFilm.com, and maybe you will understand what I mean. There are some great posts on there that other people have written, and I even sent in a short one. I’m sure you can too, just send a post to beardocumentary@gmail.com. Also, I noticed that another blogger had a link to her site, which is how I found an awesome new travel blog to follow, maybe you can do the same! Good luck, I can’t wait to hear or read something.